PIC: Christian 'Love' For Atheists: Just What Jesus Would Say?

Ask an Atheist Project: Venomous

And here we have the latest entry into the illustrious Ask an Atheist Project, an ongoing project of mine which is kept going by the contributions of fellow atheists who submit their responses to a series of questions. This latest entry is by a friend of mine who goes by the moniker "Venomous" here in the crazy online world of the internet. (HERE is a link to Venomous' Gamepad on Gametrailers, where you can find his blogs and his fantastic game reviews (he's a professional (magazine) game reviewer).

So, here is his submission. Read, enjoy, laugh, cry, recoil in horror, whatever and then feel free to comment, and let him know what you think, where you agree/disagree, etc. And thanks very much to Venomous  for taking the time to do this. Btw, if anyone reading this wants to see the other entries, and/or enter their own submission, please click the link above. Thanks. (For now, though, you can have a link to my (magx01's) entry (hey, I started the damn thing!)

Ask an Atheist Project: PaladinSkyeGodEatr

And here we have the latest entry into the illustrious Ask an Atheist Project, an ongoing project of mine which is kept going by the contributions of fellow atheists who submit their responses to a series of questions. This latest entry is by a friend of mine who goes by the moniker "PaladinSkyeGodEatr" here in the crazy online world of the internet. (HERE is a link to Paladin's Gamepad on Gametrailers, where you can find his blogs, such as his blog about Homeopathy, or his examination of Pantheism (a blog on which I believe you still owe me a comment, buddy ol' pal!) both of which i enjoyed).

So, here is his submission. Read, enjoy, laugh, cry, recoil in horror, whatever and then feel free to comment, and let him know what you think, where you agree/disagree, etc. And thanks very much to Paladin for taking the time to do this. Btw, if anyone reading this wants to see the other entries, and/or enter their own submission, please click the link above. Thanks.

Atheism: Revelation!

Note: This is an old forum post that I made many months ago as a follow up to the previous blog detailing my 'story' in terms of my atheism.

I....had an experience this morning. I have been wrong my whole life............

Atheism: My Story

In this blog I will share with you my story. Why I am an atheist (although the answer is rather simple), how those around me handle(d) it, and the beliefs of those I associate with. I will frame it as an interview (why....I dunno). So, let's begin, shall we?

Ask an Atheist Project: magx01

In this blog, you, the reader, get the chance the read several varying atheistic takes on common questions asked of us godless heathens by god fearing folk. We are going to all be answering the same 13 questions, and then we are each supposed to choose a random 14th question to respond to. In addition to this, you are also going to be able to read the take of a (reasonable, intelligent, atheist friendly) Islamic theist (Vestsao) answering from the perspective of an atheist. Sort of a "walk a mile in his shoes" sort of thing.

Ask an Atheist Project: RelaxGodFolk

In this blog, you, the reader, get the chance the read several varying atheistic takes on common questions asked of us godless heathens by god fearing folk. We are going to all be answering the same 13 questions, and then we are each supposed to choose a random 14th question to respond to. In addition to this, you are also going to be able to read the take of a (reasonable, intelligent, atheist friendly) Islamic theist (Vestsao) answering from the perspective of an atheist. Sort of a "walk a mile in his shoes" sort of thing.

Ask an Atheist Project: Vestsao

In this blog, you, the reader, get the chance the read several varying atheistic takes on common questions asked of us godless heathens by god fearing folk. We are going to all be answering the same 13 questions, and then we are each supposed to choose a random 14th question to respond to. In addition to this, you are also going to be able to read the take of a (reasonable, intelligent, atheist friendly) Islamic theist (Vestsao) answering from the perspective of an atheist. Sort of a "walk a mile in his shoes" sort of thing.

Ray Comfort: Atheists Evolved From Chickens

Well, apparently it's Ray Comfort week here on The Thoughtful Gamers :)

Back in Januray of 2008, Ray Comfort ruminated over the idea that perhaps atheists evolved from chickens.

(I just came to find out about this idea of his yesterday, courtesy of the Non Prophets radio show (I'm working through the podcast archive, and I am in the 2008 season). )

In Defense of The Anthropic Principle

As stated here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle the anthropic principle is the idea that the observations of the physical universe must be compatible with the life observed in it. The principle was formulated in response to the fine tuning/argument from design type arguments, which assert that the universe seems to have been created just for us, as all of the natural laws, and all physical constants contained therein, are conducive to life. The anthropic principle basically counters this contention with a well, duh. Of course it's all conducive to life. If it wasn't, we would not be here to make such observations. You cannot observe conditions of a given universe of you do not exist.

Presuppositions, Frameworks, and Argumentation.

Video on this topic:


And yes, I was having a horrible hair day that day, sue me ;)

Okay, so I have been intermittently been thinking about this topic for some time. The thing of which I am speaking is debate on the subject of relgion. Now, while this could actually pertain to any subject, I would like to frame this within the context of religious discussion. Namely, that which takes place beteen believers and non believers.
So, believers and non believers have two completely different worldviews, or frameworks, from which their arguments on this subject are deployed. Each of these viewpoints, or frameworks, contain beliefs that are fundamentally subscribed to. They are presupposed. For example, the believer will pressupose the existence of god(s). Any discussion regarding religion always takes place with this presupposition in effect.

An atheist will pressupose things as well. For example, if I am to discuss evolution with someone, I absolutely enter the debate with the presupposition that evolution is a fact. Or, to tie in with the example I gave for the theist, an atheist will pressupose that certain arguments for the existence of a deity are false. Speaking for myself, I outright reject the TAG, cosmological, and teleological arguments for the existence of god, and thusly enter into any discussion about them with the idea in mind that they are insufficent/flawed/unacceptable.

So just what the fuck am I driving at here?

Well, presuppositions can change, although it is (notoriously) difficult. So my question is as follows:
Which do you think is the more effective method of argumentation? Working within people's given frameworks, and trying to change their mind on enough non pressuposed issues until one day the presuppositions themselves naturally come under scrutiny (or they are willing to actually consider them)

aka The Top Down Approach (as it was named by my friend and excellent Youtuber http://www.youtube.com/user/RelaxGodfolk

OR

Going right for the presuppositions, knowing that if you strike right at the heart of the matter and are successful, everything else will presumably fall in line?

aka The Bottom Up Approach (also named by my friend and excellent Youtuber http://www.youtube.com/user/RelaxGodfolk

To elucidate this, as an atheist, would you think I'd have more success refuting a theists' notions on several different particulars until their very belief in god comes into question, or going right for the presupposition, knowing that if I can remove the certainty, the rest will crumble the second the belief in god does?

This of course, as I stated, can be applied to anything. Politics is another big one. This does not have to be about religion.

One thing to add was something I stated in the video: Does the fact of whether or not the ideas that follow from the presuppositions are logically consistent/follow from the belief (aka not non sequitors) change the ideal approach? I would think that it does, in that, if Y follows from X, it might be more prudent to go right for X, since you will have a harder time attacking a position which is seemingly steeped in solid logic. And of course, the opposite would be true (in my view, of course). If Y does NOT follow from X, then it is easier to tackle Y. So, if Y and Z both do not logically follow from X, and you strip them away, X is more susceptible to scrutiny (aka the top down approach).

I would love to get some feedback on this, both from theists and atheists. I think this is an interesting topic than could benefit from anyone, on both sides of this debate. Actually, forget that context, anyone, period, in terms of ANY debate. Sometimes I get too steeped in the theist/atheist thing, but what can I say? It's the area of discussion with which I am most fascinated, opinionated, and well, according to a few people.....obsessed.

Why Are Atheists So Angry?

Why Are Atheists So Angry?

Warning: Anger and cursing ahead! If you're going to be offended, don't read it. I allow my baser emotion to run awry in this one, so consider yourself warned.

Why are atheists so angry? The question I hear so often. It's amazing that it gets asked at all, let alone on a regular basis. I mean, really, listen to the words that are coming out of our mouths! Is that so fucking difficult?

So, really, the short answer is that. PAY ATTENTION TO WHAT I AM SAYING AND YOU'LL HAVE YOUR ANSWER.

Of course, the short answer doesn't always suffice (and it's never as fun) so, in the spirit of both fun and of providing satisfactory answers, here's the long answer:

Have you been paying attention to the news lately? See what the Catholic church has been up to? What nonreligious organizations would get away with such behaviour? What nonreligious organizations would be defended after committing such horrible actions and covering them up?

Go ahead, tell me, I'm waiting......

Exactly.

Religion gets a pass due to the professions of ''holiness'' and the fact the people think they hold their afterlives in their hands. It's sickening. Repeat after me:

THE POPE SHOULD BE IN FUCKING JAIL. THE POPE IS NOT HOLY. HE IS A FUCKING PIECE OF SHIT WHO CARES MORE ABOUT HIS MONEY, INFLUENCE AND POWER THAN HE DOES THE WELLBEING OF CHILDREN WHO HAVE BEEN RAPED. MORE THAN HE DOES JUSTICE, TRUTH, FAIRNESS, VIRTUE.....YOU KNOW, ALL THAT SHIT PEOPLE PAY TO HEAR THEM ESPOUSE ON SUNDAYS.

Diplomatic immunity my FUCKING ASS. If that cocksucking (no offence to gay men or straight women, I love you both) fucking child abuser protecting, African killing (due to his BULLSHIT condom policy), selfish hypocritical piece of shit stepped foot in my area I'd beat the shit out of him and then place him under citizens arrest.

FUCK HIM.

Atheists are sick of being ostracized for not believing in otherworldly deities. You have no idea what it is like to be looked at with that fucking annoying piece of shit face when people realize you don't believe as they do. It's a combination of surprise, pity, sadness, fear, and disgust.

I am tired of being the least trusted minority. I would like the fact that it's basically impossible for us to hold public office to change. And I am sick of hearing so much anti atheist rhetoric coming out of America, esp. Faux News, and other right wing outlets. FUCK YOU. All you're doing is strawmanning and generalizing, and painting 15%-25% of your country with a broad brush. In the same way I can say many (most) theists are good people, you assholes should be honest and good enough to say the same with respect to atheism. But, your stupid religions teach that we're bad, so I guess even though you're adults and should know better, maybe it's not entirely your fault.....maybe.

And I am SICK of being threatened with hell. Seriously, FUCK YOU. I especially love it when you ask them if they themselves think it's fair that you're being punished for eternity for a lack of belief in a deity who left you no reasonable evidence on which to base your belief, and they are in a position where they either have to agree with their god and say yes, which is just disgusting, or say no, which they are usually reluctant to do. Which means 95% of the time I get ''Well, it's not up to me'' or ''We can't judge god.''

Right. Nice fucking cop out. If you can say he's good, just, holy, righteous, etc etc etc....guess what? YOU ARE FUCKING JUDGING HIM, HYPOCRITE!!

Positive statements are judgements!!!!!!!

Btw, on the subject of hell, I don't understand why anyone would worship a god that would do that, even if they think he exists. We all have parents, and they exist, but sometimes, they're just assholes, and aren't worthy of respect. Maybe, rather than praying for me, you should ask your god to be MORE REASONABLE, AND NOT BE A VINDICTIVE, PETTY, MEAN SPIRITIED FUCKING ASSHOLE!!

I am so, so fucking incredibly, indescribaly sick of the wars, terrorism, divisiveness, oppression, hatred, bigotry, etc perpetuated by the religious. Do I have to go through the laundry list of specific problems, both present and past, that are directly tied to religion? When people are brought up in a culture that ingrains these beliefs into them, are taught that anyone who doesn't believe as they do are bad, and PRAISE the idea of believing without evidence (on faith), you can end up with major problems.

We are at war with Islamist extremists, yet, this idea that religion is ''holy'' and untouchable, something to be ''respected'' (to a fucking absurd degree) lends it this protectionism that is motherfucking preposterous. All ideas, ALL OF THEM, should be up for scrutiny. But not religious belief, no no, can't touch that. And so now, we're at war with an idea that we can't even properly examine, let alone criticize. HOW ARE WE SUPPOSED TO COMBAT IT?

Religion discourages progression. It forces people to accept theories and then apply evidence to fit those theories and reject that which does not fit, which is the TOTAL FUCKING OPPOSITE of what we should be doing.

It's also divisive and teaches children that they are christian children or Islamic children and therefore are different than others......as opposed to just being children. Shouldn't a person's religion (or lack thereof) be their fucking choice? Think about it: Why do you think religions want to get to kids so young? Hmm....perhaps because no one would believe this shit if they were exposed to it when they were 20?

People are using their religious morals to affect LAW, and the lives of others (gay marriage laws, anyone?). Guess what? We don't live in a fucking theocracy.

They want to teach creationism in public schools for Christ's sake (pun certainly intended)! In SCIENCE class even! It's INSANITY!

The HORRENDOUS, BIGOTED treatment of gay people, greedy, bullshit televangelism, fraudulent ''faith healing'', parents not giving their children the proper medical treatment in favour of praying, irrationality, poor standards of evidence being taught as a GOOD thing, the degradation of secularism and separation of church and state......

All in all, these totally UNPROVEN and natural law breaking gods have caused WAY more problems than they are worth, in this humble person's opinion.

But, magx, religion does so much good!!

Really?
Name me ONE moral act a theist can do that I cannot.

(And if you're going to mention religious charities, don't. Go to Google and type in secular charities. There's a fuckload, and the biggest one in the world is run by an atheist.)

Of COURSE religious people do good. But they do NOT need religion to do those things.

But, magx, religion teaches morality!!

Name me one moral teaching from a religion that did not already exist, or is exclusive to religion. Morality is inherent within us. We would not survive as a species without it. We thrive on co-operation, and co-operation requires certain rules in order to maximize adaptation, and propagation. Hence, morality.

The End

Letter to a Christian Nation

Well, more like letter to a religious world, but that's not a particularly catchy title, is it?

;)

So, here is a short and simple, but important message from me to the religious:

If you follow what you believe to be a peaceful, loving religion, live as though that were true. Don't hate on or discriminate against gay people, atheists (or gay atheists....haha), people of a different religion, etc, and don't put up with a priest, preacher, pastor, imam, monk, family member or anyone else pushing those types of ideas. Call them out on it. Challenge them. Don't provide cover for them because you share their religion. Make it difficult and uncomfortable for them to hold (and especially promote) such views. Don't give them a free pass because you're of the same religious belief.

The same way I don't tolerate bigotry from my atheistic brethren, you should do the same. When people like Pat Robertson say the disgusting shit they do, the voices of contention seem to be largely atheistic. Ditto for the sex abuse scandals, and all sorts of other things. Let's change that. Stand up and say NO to these people.

Gay people are people just like you and I. The only difference is whom they are attracted to. That's it. Does that sound like something worthy of hate? No. Wanting to stop them from marrying someone they love is cruel and wrong. Don't be a part of that. Atheists? We're people too. Don't buy into the rhetoric that's out there, and if you're in church or synagogue, mosque or school, and you hear the religious leader talking nonsense about us, say something. Don't let hate filled ignorance exist uncontested.

We're not immoral as a people. We're not ''evil.'' We're just like you. The only difference is belief, and really, you should understand that too. Take your position on the gods you do not believe in, and that how we feel about your particular god(s). Does that sound evil to you? The reason they spread such nonsense about us should be quite obvious: we're seen as a threat. They figure if you guys mingle with atheists, you are at risk of losing your religion, and they can't have members leaving in large numbers. Think about it.

Also, about religion in general....I won't get into a long diatribe here, but allow me to say one thing: religions always get to people when they are very, very young, and they almost always villify/demonize the nonbelievers.......doesn't it seem as though they are working very hard to ensure people buy into the ideas they're espousing? Think about it. If you want people to join your group and share your beliefs, and this belief is generally predicated on something as potentially tenuous as faith, doesn't starting really young and demonizing nonbelievers make sense, in a manipulative sort of way? How many people would be religious if they were
first exposed to the religion at say 20, as opposed to 4? That's all I'll say for on that for now.

Thank you for reading, and science bless ;)

I'm now a Youtube Atheist,

Well, I Made my foray Into the 'Youtube Atheism' thing, for better or for worse...

Article about someone leaving the JW Cult

An article entitled ''The knock at the door that turned my parents into brainwashed fanatics - and nearly cost my life'' was published yesterday on dailymail.co.uk. It details a woman's struggles with a JW family, and what happened to her when she ultimately left.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1250078/The-knock-door-turned-parents-brainwashed-fanatics--nearly-cost-life.html

Small excerpt:

Jehovah's Witnesses believe that blood is sacred and that accepting a transfusion - which is likely during many operations - is a sin. Frightened and in pain, I was told by the doctors that I was in grave danger if I refused a transfusion.

The anaesthetist, clearly agitated and upset, even said to me: 'Do you realise you are going to die and leave your babies without a mother?'


Before I could protest, Dennis, an elder I had known for a few years, was at my bedside. He was in his 70s and from a Brighton congregation - all Jehovah's Witness elders are males. I genuinely thought: 'Dennis is coming to help', yet here he was clutching a form stating I would refuse a transfusion and telling me to sign.


I glanced over at my parents and my husband Bob, hoping they would say something, but they stood by obediently, saying nothing while the elders took over.


It still hurts to think we were all so brainwashed that they could have stood by and watched me and my babies die.


I was in absolute turmoil. I knew that if I didn't sign the forms I would be banished from the movement and from everyone I loved and would be left without the support of my family.


I didn't want to die, but Dennis simply stood there, pen reaching out to me and I knew what I had to do. I signed.

Read the article, and then post your comments here. The only thing I can say is that I know someone who went through a similar experience, and to this day she struggles with guilt. This guilt has persisted for decades. You see, her daughter was dying and she ultimately relented and allowed her to get a blood transfusion, and this set the stage for her being segregated from the rest of the JW community.

Her own husband chastized her for it. He had been pushing for her not to, saying that if their daughter was to die, that was 'God's Will.' They ended up divorcing, and she is no longer with the JW organization, but still stuggles with the guilt and constantly worries about hell.

It's a pretty sad state of affairs.

You're Not An 'Agnostic.'

We're all agnostic. If your answer to the question ''Do you believe in a god'' is yes, you are a theist. If it's anything but yes, then you are currently an atheist.

Theism=Belief
A-theism=Lack of said belief

Gnosticism=Knowing
Agnosticism=Not knowing.

We all either believe or not, but no one ''knows'' for sure. Hence, the agnosticism part. Whether or not you believe is a matter of being convinced by the evidence. ''What evidence?'' you may ask.

Well, pick a religion.

You know the ''holy'' books, the arguments, the stories, etc etc? That's the evidence. If you don't find any of them compelling enough that they have convinced you of their veracity, and none of the non specific arguments for a deity like the cosmological or teleological argumets have convinced you, then you're an atheist.

If they have convinced you, then you're a theist, and are either a deist (convinced by the nonspecific arguments, but not by a specific religion), or you were convinced by a specific religion and now are a Hindu, or a Christian, or whatever.

You cannot just simply be 'An Agnostic.'

New Research: Atheists 'just as ethical as churchgoers'

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/7189188/Atheists-just-as-ethical-as-churchgoers.html

Few excerpts:

People who have no religion know right from wrong just as well as regular worshippers, according to the study.

People who did not have a religious background still appeared to have intuitive judgments of right and wrong in common with believers, according to the findings, published in the journal Trends in Cognitive Sciences.

The team looked at several psychological studies which were designed to test an individual’s morality.


Dr Hauser added: "The research suggests that intuitive judgments of right and wrong seem to operate independently of explicit religious commitments

 You can read more at the link I posted above.
 
To this, I think the only thing I can say is, "duh!" To any reasonable person, this is quite obvious. However, unfortunately, there are many people out there who feel that someone such as myself, has no moral compass.
 
They could not be more incorrect. Hopefully now, at least a few of these people will be stripped of such notions. The notion that one needs religion to be a moral person is incredibly outdated and misguided, and it's time to put it to rest.

Ritual killings of children in Uganda

This basically speaks for itself.....

Atheists Kill Children!! UPDATED!!

I had a particularly distasteful exchange with a youtube user by the name of MaIcoImZieI, who left the following message on another theists' channel.

First, he said this on mysticalforest's Channel:

"It's sad to see that so many people believe Charles Darwin, Evolution, 'Scienfitic Facts' and don't try themselves to find out what is truly behind this magical life."

LOL! Misguided and sad as it was, I at least derived a bit of a laugh from it.

But then, he said this:

"Yesterday an Atheist man killed his two children in my city. Shows you what people are capable of once they have turned their back to God. Stay strong!"

Well, I HAD to respond to that nonsense. So I sent him this:

" I really would like to know if you are actually positing the ''turning of one's back to god" as the cause for murder?


I'm not here to bash you or argue with you. I have no issue with you being theist, at all. But I do have an issue with this partciular statement, and honestly, you should as well. I mean, the flaws in this are incredibly self evident, so for you to say it means you either remain willfully ignorant of them, or honestly haven't thought this out.


Honestly, do you see the major flaws in such a statement? I will gladly inform you of them if you ask, but I truly want to know if you can figure it out for yourself.


And if I am coming across as condescending, that is not my intent. It's just that this is a fundamentally and obviously flawed statement.


And it's also not fair. You guys are demonizing an entire group of people, and that's not right."

And he comes back with this:

"You know very well that when people do not understand the value of life, they will do anything they want. Are you saying that if this man would have known God, if he would have known the value of life, if he would have had any understand of morality, he would still have killed his children? NEVER!"

So, I respond back, and demolish his line of thinking:

"You avoided my question. And you also made the same fundamental errors. I guess I have to fill you in on what they are:


1) Generalizations. This should be obvious. You cannot extrapolate from one incident and apply it to a whole group. That's like me saying that all Chrstians who follow the god of th ebible are against abortion, or gay marriage. You and I both know that is not correct, but if I were like you I could point to the Westboro Baptists and say ''Well, this is what happens when you believe in that god."


Hitler was a professed Christian. Do I assume that Chrstianity leads to genocide?


I hope you can see how that's faulty logic.


2) What exaclty is that claim based upon? Do you know for sure that was the reason he killed his children? What about mental illness? Or any number of other extraneous and concomittant factors? From where do you draw this conclusion?


3) You say god as though everyone believes in the same god as you. Presumably, you are a christian. What if this man believed in a god, just not the same one as you? Would you be saying that he did this because he did not believe in the right god, or is it only the total lack of a belief in any god that leads to child murder?


4) Why aren't all atheists murdering their children?


5) What about religious people of all faiths who have murdered their children? What do you have to say for that?


6) "Understanding of morality." Are you saying that one needs god belief to understand morality?


Use the brain you believe your god gave you. Just think about what a horribly nasty, vile thing it was you said, and see how your dogmatic and erroneous belief has stopped you from seeing the incredibly obvious flaws in such a disgusting assertion."

I haven't heard from him since, but he's been on the site.  I half expected him to trun tail and run when faced with coheren thoughts, and it looks like that's what he's going to do.....so typical.

The question is, do I bother with it? I'll update this with any and all new developments. For now, I'll leave it, but maybe in a day or two if I haven't heard back I'll say something....I dunno.

This is a really sad state of affirs here people. Science denial and misconstrual, and beliefs such as ''atheism leads to killing children" existing in 2010 saddens me to no end.

(And yes, I know the whole Hitler being a christian thing is contested. The fact is, he was. Whether or not he believed it or was utilizing it as a means to an end is up for debate, but it's not like I couldn't have pointed to any number of other murdering religious people to elucidate my point to him.)

UPDATE: He got back to me, check out this amazing response:

"People like you will never learn. But he... that makes sense... you believe we came out of a magical Big Bang explosion (before which there was nothing?) and POP! here we are! Of course you wouldn't understand. Do you really think I am going to argue with you if you believe that bullshit? Start thinking for yourself instead of reading books written by others."

What the fuck.

I sent him this:

"You can't be serious. You just can't. If you are serious, wow, you're absolutely stupid. And you're also a coward, because you completely failed to address the point. The last sentence really nails the conundrum. You're either screwing around, or monumentally stupid, and ignorant of the massive amount of irony contained in that one pathetic sentence.

Either way, you're a waste of time."

I was going to try and continue discussing this with him, but come on, it's impossible either way, so fuck it, I decided to be blunt. Enough is enough.